Navigating Low Testosterone and Finding Midlife Hobbies
Tara Ellison 0:00
I was, like, a dude. I really was, I was like, and I wasn't interested in his feelings. I would, you know, say, okay, we can have sex. But then I was like, done, and I want to get on with
Sarah Milken 0:09
my dad. So funny, because I was reading that, and you were like, my husband was like, super psyched about the sex, but like, he was not psyched that we felt very disconnected, yes, kind of like I
Tara Ellison 0:20
was using, yeah, I was a dude.
Sarah Milken 0:27
Hey, peeps, welcome to the flexible, neurotic podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Milken, Yeah, you heard that, right? I'm a real PhD Doctor Long, long ago, like last fucking year, I was sitting in the midlife bunk, wondering, was this it for me? That day, I realized I needed to get off my ass and start my midlife remix. I dusted off my PhD, wiped the menopause sweat off my forehead, grabbed my golden shit shovel and started digging deep to all my midlife bitches. It's not just luck, coffee and hormones that get you through your midlife. Remix, it's action steps. Let's do this. Welcome back to the flexible neurotic Podcast. I'm Dr Sarah Milken, the flexible neurotic today I am wearing readers because today I have notes, because today I did not want to memorize the amazing titles of my guests articles, which you're going to love, so I have them written here. This is the midlife reinvention podcast, where we talk about all the Uggs and fabulosities of midlife. I have my golden shit shovel. We shovel through all the layers of the midlife shit. Today we are getting into the nitty gritty of a midlife reboot with my amazing guest, Tara Ellison. Hello. She is a very prolific writer in all of the magazines and newspapers. You've heard of the cut, New York Times, Harper's Bazaar, Huffington Post, I'm sure I'm missing a million more. And lately, she's been on the midlife topic, narrative story, and we're gonna get into her own midlife reboot and into a few of the articles she's written on testosterone midlife, the reinvention, finding her love for sea otters and all of the things. So hang with us, and we're gonna get into it. Happy to have you. Hi. Thank you for having me. I mean, it's so fun for you to be here like this is my second podcast of the day. I told you I've already sweat through my clothes, changed my shirt since I had armpit rings you would never know. I know composed. And my fan, we got it going on again. Your own fan. Fan, thank you. I know much the AC is too loud for the recording. Who knows. But anyway, I'm so happy to have you here. I've loved reading your articles. And some of my friends, I told them that I was interviewing you, and they were like, Oh my God, we love those articles too. So obviously you're making the midlife rounds.
Tara Ellison 3:07
I am making the midline. It's very nice to hear that people have read it, because you know what, you toil away on these things, and as you
Sarah Milken 3:15
know, you're in a dark room, and nobody gives a fuck. They
Tara Ellison 3:18
gives a fuck. And
Tara Ellison 3:22
my husband's sick of me. Oh, my things, and my girlfriends are sick of it. So I'm like, Will anybody give a fuck about this?
Sarah Milken 3:29
I do we? Do we all do all my listeners. Do we give
Tara Ellison 3:33
a fuck? Yes, yes, yes. The give a fuck
Sarah Milken 3:37
the midlife give a fuck club. I mean, I always talk about how everything in midlife is hard and good honestly. Like, if you think about it, it's like lifting the dumb weights is really hard, but it's fucking good for you. Eating more than 18, yeah, this morning, I ate the fucking 30 grams of sausage protein. Like, no, I don't want to eat that, but I do the midlife protein scavenger hunt every day to try to get to 100
Tara Ellison 4:02
you are a champ. No, I was
Sarah Milken 4:05
just, I'm in beast mode right now, which means I, like, two days I'm like, oh my god, I'm so good at this. And the next two days I'm, like, on the sofa, scrolling, you know, right? So I feel like leaning into the days where you actually have some energy. You have to, like, today I went to the gym, recorded two podcasts. I mean, you know, it got my protein in, didn't do the steps, but I'm like, tomorrow, there's still time. I might be my day off. You just don't know,
Tara Ellison 4:33
yes. So you judge it per day, like when you wake up, like it's
Sarah Milken 4:37
like, this whole time is just an emotional roller coaster, physiological, physical, mental because it's like I have a kid off in college, a daughter applying to college, and it's just every day is a shit show, yes, and I'm grateful I have a good shit show, and it's still a shit show,
Tara Ellison 4:56
right? There's no way around it. There's no
Sarah Milken 4:58
way around it. So. So before we get into your main article that was just written about the midlife reboot, I want to talk about another article, love and marriage and menopause, my hormones turned into a labor of love. Emphasis on the labor part. Yeah.
Tara Ellison 5:17
It turned the sex part with my husband into a labor of love. Yes, that whole article is about how to keep having sex with your partner while your hormones are just going sideways and you're trying to figure out the shit show, as you pointed out, because you know, the hormone puzzle is really it's real. And fuck yeah, I just couldn't believe when I was like, 44 and I had hot flashes out of nowhere. I was like, Oh, my God. Where did this come from? And, you know, I'm 56 so this is a while ago now, and nobody was talking about menopause. 12 years 1112, years ago. Nobody said a word about it, especially not in LA because everybody is trying to pretend not happening.
Sarah Milken 5:58
So you're at a birthday, friend's birthday party, you start profusely sweating. Yes,
Tara Ellison 6:03
I was just like, somebody set fire to my insides, and I was, what the fuck? And these guys were leaning in for this picture, and I remember this moment, sort of, oh, my god. Can they feel this heat fading off? Can
Sarah Milken 6:17
you feel my heat right now? I've got my fan right here, right?
Tara Ellison 6:20
No. So it just was mortifying. And I also felt this sense of shame, like, what is wrong with me that my body, at 44 is doing this? I felt like, Okay, I'm a step away from a dried up old crone. This is what's happening. And I went to the My gyno at the time. You know, that was like, three gynos
Sarah Milken 6:41
ago. Yeah, exactly. Like,
Tara Ellison 6:44
she really, her attitude was like, oh, sucks to be you. And, yeah, you're, you know, your blood levels say you're in menopause. And then she had another patient, and she just left me crying in the office. And I was just like, how do I figure this out. And I couldn't believe that there wasn't more info available, and I understood, like, she has a practice of women having babies, but what about those of us that sort of age out of that? Like, what's next for us?
Sarah Milken 7:14
Like, you can get Botox, but everything else you're fucked. I mean, it's weird. It's, I totally get it. It's so
Tara Ellison 7:20
bizarre to me, and also, when you sort of factor in that so much of our lives are lived, you know, hopefully beyond menopause, yeah, because
Sarah Milken 7:30
longevity numbers are crazy, people are living so much longer. So you have so many more years after the age of 50 than we used to. It's like you better get your shit together, your vagina together, and you better get some hobbies. That's right brain. Yeah, your brain is like, I always talk about my husband has like, 19 hobbies. It's like, he plays the piano, he plays golf, like he's not gonna have dementia, but I will. I'm not doing all those things. I'm like, maybe my podcast will help me, but it's a lot of things. Well,
Tara Ellison 7:59
it's interesting that you say that, because I that was one of my midlife sort of moments where I was like, I have I'm gonna have more free time now. What the hell do I do with it, trying to get back in touch with that person that I used to be before I got married, and I was married before, and I had my daughter, and I got divorced, so I'm remarried, but, you know, I had a foggy recollection of who that person was, what were her interests, and who was I now. So there's this whole thing that happens where you have to kind of, you know, it's sort of like an identity crisis, I guess, but you have to kind of re jigger all the pieces and see what how they fit.
Sarah Milken 8:43
Do you feel like you did it in like, because the way your articles came out and were written, it seems like maybe you did it in a more sequential order, like, do you feel like you spent a few years trying to get your hormones together, then you kind of moved on to the kind of purpose, hobby, relevance piece? Yes or okay, because that's the way I read it, yeah, that it was like, Okay, let me go to all these doctors. First goal first, yeah, get my patches and my creams and my special potions. And I have tried it all by and I the story that I love the most, though, is one of the doctors that you went to was like, basically told you to have sex every day. Yes. So tell us about that, because it's so this guy's, if somebody told me that I would die.
Tara Ellison 9:28
But I know I was like, did my husband pay you to say that? I mean, I know I was like, does this justify your bill? Is this
Tara Ellison 9:36
I've got something so
Sarah Milken 9:37
sex every day when I was 20. Like, that's like, You're, like, a porn sir.
Tara Ellison 9:41
Well, here's the funny thing, this guy, I don't know if he still is, but he probably is. It was very well known, a hormone guy in LA and, and I, you know, in my running around trying to figure out what's going on. And that doctor didn't know anything. So I'm like, Okay. Let me find a hormone person, anti aging, which I thought, you know, there's something distasteful about anti aging, like we all have to age, but it's like, maybe graceful aging. They should write different, different container for that. But anyway, I went to see this guy, and he, he told me, he gave me all these creams, and basically I was just slap that shit on and, like, and really, I was to be the judge of it, of how much I needed. I mean, he gave me some guidance, but then he's like, you know, if you feel like you need more, you put more on. And I was like, whoa. Really, I'm
Sarah Milken 10:35
the judge of this. Well, I know, I call it my midlife science project, because I'm like, just like, rub the cream on the backs of your knees, and then another person's like, put the testosterone on your labia. But then I read that your labia gets really big, and then there's no going back. And I was like, that's weird, too. I'm not doing overgrown labia. What? So I'm like, I'm still in the process of figuring out where the testosterone going, and I just had to retest it to see, like, if the lowest dose of the cream either here behind my knees, I can't do the labia part.
Tara Ellison 11:13
You know, I've been doing the inner thighs. Yeah? I started there, yeah. And then I heard recently that outer thoughts, oh, something that was a new one that I hadn't heard so I'm like, Oh, I didn't know it could go there, like
Sarah Milken 11:26
the forearm. I'm like, Okay, it's really thin skins, very it's not gonna touch anyone else. But also, you hug people, though, so you have to now for the first few hours of the
Tara Ellison 11:35
day. That's true. Okay, yeah, you don't have any small dogs that you cart around.
Sarah Milken 11:39
No, no. Type of golden retriever who's in love with my husband. So, okay, I'm totally irrelevant. So it's fine, perfect.
Tara Ellison 11:47
Yeah, so then that's probably, but you sort of go through spots like, okay, rub on your butt. And one lady was telling me, oh, you can put it on your stomach. And, like, I was like, Really, yeah, it's kind
Sarah Milken 11:57
of like magnesium cream. You sort of just put it wherever you think it's going to absorb,
Tara Ellison 12:01
right? And you sort of rotate around and try to find, well,
Sarah Milken 12:04
you tried to do pellets first, and that's when you were a sex rabbit. Yeah?
Tara Ellison 12:10
So I should back up so that one doctor did say, the the guy who gave me the cream said, slap that stuff on. He was like, Oh, and make sure you're having sex with your husband every day. And I was like, wait, what? And I said, What does that make me feel better? Like, you know, does that help the hormones? Yeah, does that kick it? Kick in those hormones again? And they like, go into high gear. And he's like, No, but you'll both feel better. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then I thought, well, I could try it for a little while. So we did. My husband was very much in favor of that program. Oh, okay. But I mean, it's not, you know, it's very hard to achieve that all the time. Yeah? And I did feel like, you know, it was work. It's like, a job.
Sarah Milken 12:53
Yeah, I can imagine you're like, is this gonna take more than four seconds?
Tara Ellison 12:58
I'll give you two minutes in the laundry. Let's go. That's it, buddy. But, you know, it does start you thinking, but it did kind of help, because I did start thinking of like, you know, my whole pelvic like, it just was like, okay, things are happening.
Sarah Milken 13:16
Did you feel like you had to, like, have an orgasm every single time? That's like, so much pressure? Yeah,
Tara Ellison 13:21
no, no, I was just like, Okay, let's knock it out. Yeah, go, okay, all right, that makes me feel a little bit better. Yeah, I definitely don't want to put too much pressure myself that way. Or my husband's like, Okay, we're gonna do this. Let's just say, you know, let's just go. It was fun, because it's like we were playing this little game, yeah? Wait, you know, so that was fun for a while, but, you know, that wears off.
Sarah Milken 13:43
It's like, playing a protein no gluten game. It's like, it gets really boring after five minutes.
Tara Ellison 13:48
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, um, so I cycled through trying different things, because I found that things work for a while, and then they stopped working. Yeah? So I wasn't sure, like, do I go? So I ended up going to the new gyno that I had after that lady was telling me that, you know, she didn't really have a lot of suggestions for my menopause plan. And also she what I really was annoyed at. She didn't say, Look, what's happening now is perimenopause. I didn't know that was a thing. Never heard of
Sarah Milken 14:19
the word. It's like, either you're in menopause or you're not.
Tara Ellison 14:22
Yeah, I thought I was like a dead woman walking basically. So it it felt like, and I really was surprised by how much grief I had, how attached I was to feeling like young and like fertile Myrtle. Well, not even so much that, oh, I'm gonna have a kid, another kid, but just my sense of juiciness in the world, and just like walking around, just, I don't know how to describe it exactly, but it was just it was so attached to my sense of identity that when that was there was that threat like, oh, that's gone. I was so stunned, really, and I did feel. Depressed, and part of that is because my hormones were just, you know, in the toilet. But, yeah, so, I mean, I went to a new guy, know, who then was saying, this is after I had been to the hormone guy was like, put everything on, and then this, this guy, know, said to me, Look, you know what you're doing is playing with which potions, like, who knows what's in that shit, like, or how much is in there. Why don't we put you on the birth control pill? And this is what you should do. So I tried that for like, a month, and I was like, crawling out of my mind, like it just wasn't way. And you felt, I just felt like, puffy and, yeah, it just wasn't
Sarah Milken 15:39
good. So funny, because I'm like, the one person who loves birth control pill, oh yeah. And I'm 49 and I'm still on them, and I'm not proud of it. I should not be on them, but I don't know. I just kept saying, keep saying to my doctors, I'm like, look like, I don't have to come off it for another year or two. I have a daughter applying to college. I have a son who just left like, I can't rock that saying, like, yeah, I have to be mentally kind of prepared for because no one can tell you. Like, we just said, like, no one can tell me what's going to happen. Like, is my hair going to fall out? Am I going to feel weird? Because there is a difference between birth control pill estrogen and HRT estrogen. And no one can say, like, this is what's going to happen. I actually had one doctor like, be really honest with me and say, I've had three patients go back on birth control pills after they tried to switch over to HRT. And so it's like, one of those things where I'm like, Okay, I have to be in like, the perfect mindset and there and watch something's gonna happen. It's gonna be like, perfect, smooth sailing. Who knows, but maybe it's working for you, and that's fine for now, I know, but eventually I have to change it, and that's why, like, I've, I've added into my science project, the testosterone, the progesterone, has been a little iffy, because when I first took it, I was like, fuck. At 100 milligrams, I felt like somebody hit me with a baseball bat. Yeah? And it's funny, because I have some friends who take 200 Yes, I was on 200 from if I took 200 I would be in like a walking coma, like crazy, right? And so they just, they gave me a micronized one that's compounded, that's 25 milligrams that I'm about to restart. But it's just, it's that kind of like, you don't know what's what. You don't know what's placebo. Everything's like a crapshoot, yeah?
Tara Ellison 17:29
And everyone responds different, yeah? So there's no one size fits all, and you do have to be like, your own, you know, science experiment, yeah. I wish there were a simpler answer, but there isn't at this point.
Sarah Milken 17:42
So you kind of went around and around with the hormone your husband, from what I read in your article, your husband was like, super psyched about the sex every day. And you were like, robotically, like, you were like a maniac on the testosterone. You were productive. You were getting shit done. You were like, boom, boom,
Tara Ellison 17:59
boom. It was so funny, because it was sort of the it's like,
Sarah Milken 18:03
probably what people feel like when they take Adderall or something, yeah, maybe, I don't know, not horny, but just the fact that you can, like, get through your day and feel pretty active and get shit done.
Tara Ellison 18:15
So I was at a point when I was sort of tapering off various creams, or wasn't using enough. And a friend of mine told me that she was doing this thing called pellets, and I had no idea what that was. How can I be in LA and not know, like people are getting, you know, shot up with everything here, but I didn't know about hormones. So you could, like, do a pellet. So I'm like, Okay, I've tried everything else at this point. Let me try this. And I went to the guy, and he looked at my, levels, my and he's like, I'm surprised you could get out of bed. Like, you're, you're,
Sarah Milken 18:46
oh no. Mine is, like, in the basement, okay. Like Mine is like, zero, yeah,
Tara Ellison 18:51
it's not, it's not fun. So did an extreme dose, what I consider an extreme dose. But I was pretty much like, Okay, well, you know, okay, let's try it. And I don't know what, what dos he's doing, but it took me from like, you know, nothing, to like, 100 times more,
Sarah Milken 19:11
fantasizing about your husband in this position. I
Tara Ellison 19:13
was grabbing his ass every time he walked by. I was like, a dude. I really was, I was like, and I wasn't interested in his feelings. I would, you know, say, okay, we can have sex. But then I was, like, done, and I want to get on with my dad. So
Sarah Milken 19:27
funny, because I was reading that, and you were like, my husband was, like, super psyched about the sex, but like, he was not psyched that we felt very disconnected, yes, kind of like,
Tara Ellison 19:37
I was used, yeah, I was a dude. So it was, you know, we were two dudes getting along, except for the, you know, I was just very like, and another thing that he was really weird, because he was like, I'm used to being in charge, like, you know, what, positions, or whatever. And I was like, No, this is how we're doing it. And, like, I just was.
Sarah Milken 20:00
In dude mode, and did anyone else
Tara Ellison 20:02
notice? They might have thought, Oh, she's really aggro, or she's in like, a bad mood.
Sarah Milken 20:07
It's funny, because I had a friend who started taking testosterone a couple years ago, and she, like, is not someone who, like, picks fights. She's pretty mellow. And she was on the phone with me, and she was telling me the story about something that happened between, like, her and her father in law, like he said this, and then she kind of went off and said, X, Y and Z. And I said to her, I go, so and so, what's going on? Are you taking something? Because this is like, and she's like, I'm taking testosterone. I'm like, I hate to say it's you, but I feel like you need to dial it back a little bit. And she's like, Oh my God, you're so right. And then her husband was like, you're kind of right, yeah, but I did notice it. It was definitely like a
Tara Ellison 20:50
boom, well, it, yeah, it's a rocket ship. Or actually, my gyno that I'm with now, who is really amazing. She was like, No, the pellets suck. You need to get off those. But the thing with the pellets is, and I'm not on them anymore, but you can't control the dust.
Sarah Milken 21:09
What's weird about it? They're like, they're basically like, putting your tush, not, yeah, your tush, but in the, I mean, yeah, in your bun,
Tara Ellison 21:16
right, in the in, you can adjust it, right? You're it dissolves over time. So if you get something that like, can you imagine how awful that would be if you're just aggro and like, going out of your skin? So the doctors that I interviewed for that piece, and I spent a lot of time talking to doctors for that Washington Post piece, they were like, you know, when these people give women super physiologic doses that that they can't, then dial back it's really not good for women. So they were, you know, not so much against the concept of testosterone for libido, for example, but the fact that you just, you can't, sort of, yeah, they were very much against that. So I was like, Ooh, okay. So then they sort of talked me out of the whole testosterone project, but I have to say, I take it in much smaller doses, because it's really hard to get you do but you do a cream now, yes, I do a cream, and I do miss feeling like a dude sometimes, really, I got a lot done. I didn't have much brain fog. I really was sick. I want to get up. I want to do my work. I want to work out. I want to have some sex, have some dinner, watch TV.
Sarah Milken 22:26
That's so fascinating that, like, could actually think about it from like, like, let's say my 20 year old son's life perspective, right?
Tara Ellison 22:34
Yeah, it's like one of those movies where you switch bodies with a young dude crazy. So, yeah, I thought it was a funny experiment testosterone land. So it's a nice
Sarah Milken 22:46
place to visit. And the fact that your husband would notice that you were like, a little less, like, emotionally attuned to what was going on with him is kind of funny too,
Tara Ellison 22:54
yes, and he missed that, because he's always like, we used to have these, like, I won't say arguments, but discussions. And he'd be like, you know, can you say whatever you're trying to say? But like, you know, with less words or more direct, or like, he would try to make me be more masculine in my form of communication. So then once I actually, because, you know, it's all about my
Sarah Milken 23:17
feelings, yeah, talking about stuff like this girl shit, please?
Tara Ellison 23:21
He's like, Okay, can we be done? But then once, I was like, that very direct and like, he was like, oh, wait a minute, that I do actual
Sarah Milken 23:31
money our community. And it's interesting too, in the whole like, testosterone and menopause space, like, no one's really talking about men. That's right, right? Like, you see the social media clips of men, like, oh, I started testosterone replacement, but it's not really a full on narrative yet. That's right. Like, how it is, because how it has become for women over the, I'd say the last five years.
Tara Ellison 23:54
Well, I think for men, there might be a little bit of a, you know, stigma attached to that. You know that it's, they're deficient in it, yeah, some way. So they have to, even though, like, you know, everybody's testosterone ways, yeah. So it's something that can be, you know, it's not a bad
Sarah Milken 24:13
and I don't know enough about it to know, like, what the difference is between, like, somebody taking testosterone versus somebody feeling like they need a Viagra. You know what I'm saying? I don't know what the difference is between those kind of two
Tara Ellison 24:27
consoles. And I'm not, I'm not a doctor, but testosterone, I think, you know, a lot of men could just feel like maybe they're a little flat or not necessarily, their penises, but, yeah, but their energy level, that's the thing is that
Sarah Milken 24:43
nobody's talking about this menopause thing. Yes, you know, like guys also in their midlife years start to feel like a drop Andro. Pause, yeah, and they can't necessarily put their fingers on it, and they don't have a group of women. Men friends who are so open and talking about it that it seems sort of like a little bit of a hidden topic.
Tara Ellison 25:07
Yeah, you're so right because they they don't want to own that either, yeah, because it sort of seems like their virility or their, you know, strength, or a vitality, the total things are kind of slipping away and and that's very painful to own, too. So they're having their own, totally their own issues. I think
Sarah Milken 25:26
that's what my husband's become, a professional golfer, yeah, or he thinks he is, because it like gives him that kind of like boost in his day, something to look forward to at the end of the day. He's gonna see his friends, he's gonna be outside. It's kind of like fake testosterone or something. I don't know.
Tara Ellison 25:45
You know, there's something where my husband watches a lot of the UFC fights, okay? And he was telling me that there's a couple of things that raise men's testosterone naturally, so it can be watching fights. So, you know, they're all into watching, you know, I call it the, my daughter and I used to call it the punching show. That's funny, because he would have his friends over watching, and you're like, the fight is happening here, but that you can feel that testimony and like, all that energy, and they're all yelling, and they're into the but the same with sports too, yeah, maybe to a lesser degree, but there's something about the you know, actually, like punching and fighting each other that raises testosterone. Also going to strip clubs that one's off the menu. Yeah, apparently that does in Vegas, exactly. And maybe he's putting me on he is a doctor, so there's certain things that I would need to go and Google before I challenge him. Yeah, but, but, I mean, it sounded kind of reasonable, reasonable So, and I know when I watch the fights, like, when he's watching something, I do get more aggro. Yeah, I do feel like, Oh my God, and you pick a person that you're rooting for, and you get really into it. So I was asking him, do you think it works on women too? Because I'm sitting here
Sarah Milken 27:08
and I'm taking the testosterone at the time, yes and no, my dose is too low to feel that. I think, yeah, right.
Tara Ellison 27:16
Well, I mean, we're all we're all on the lower doses, the people that are taking it, unless you're doing the pellets,
Sarah Milken 27:24
this is like, this is one click of that, yeah? So it's gentle, yeah? So I'm like, is this working? Like, I don't know what's happening here, right?
Tara Ellison 27:33
And it's sort of hard to tell, it is
Sarah Milken 27:35
hard to tell that, yeah, saying it's like, I don't know what's placebo, what's like, Oh, I've eaten less sugar, I have less brain fog. Is that the testosterone is that eating less sugar, it's like, you don't know. You really
Tara Ellison 27:46
don't. You don't know. And one of the experts I spoke to, she said something really interesting. She She said that women are often blamed for a low sex drive. And, you know, Could it really be that it's related to their relationship, like, what state is your relationship in? So you know, if they're resentments or they're things that you're not connecting over, then maybe you don't want to have sex with your partner, right? 100 so, so do you know, a lot of times society is like, Oh, well, we've lost our sex drive, and maybe we have a little bit but maybe we're not that excited about our partner for whatever reason. So that seems reasonable, like
Sarah Milken 28:26
life stuff, yes, you know? It's like I had one kid applying to college, and then I have another kid applying that, you know? And it's like there's so many things that are going on in life, and everybody's just trying to make it to the end of the day and have a decent day and do all the things and eat the fucking protein and drink the water and take the steps and lift the weights. You know, it's like, it never ends, right? And so I think sometimes sex and that stuff just kind of gets pushed off to the side, unless you're doing it every day, yes, unless you're checking that box part of your daily routine, which I don't know if I could handle that for
Tara Ellison 29:01
sure? Yeah? Well, it didn't last really long time.
Sarah Milken 29:04
So I know all lasted for him. Yeah, but one of the interesting things I read is that you said that one of the takeaways for you and your husband is that you realize that both sex and connection are fluid in a relationship, and they're going to ebb and flow and like that, to be okay with that. Can you talk about that? Yes.
Tara Ellison 29:24
I mean, I think that's part of being at this stage of life and sort of understanding rhythms a bit more, and understanding ourselves and understanding our bodies that are changing. I mean, I felt like, you know, my husband maybe had some expectations of me that I'm like, Dude, I'm not like 37 anymore, right, right, right. And I felt like, for a while that he was thinking in his head of like, Great times when we had, like, first met and,
Sarah Milken 29:55
like the second wife, yes, like everything was like brand new and shiny.
Tara Ellison 30:00
Sex was the glue, yeah? Kept us together and, you know, and we would like go away for a weekend, and it was very romantic and very sexy, and
Sarah Milken 30:09
dishwasher is broken. Why? Last night the dishwasher was humming, and he was like, What the fuck do you want me to do about that? I'm like, I don't know. I'm just telling you
Tara Ellison 30:19
he needs to fix it. Yeah,
Sarah Milken 30:21
no. Hums please.
Tara Ellison 30:23
That must be a loud hum.
Sarah Milken 30:26
Wow, oh. It's from the sofa to the kitchen. And I was like, this is really loud.
Tara Ellison 30:32
Well, your husband sounds pretty great, though
Sarah Milken 30:34
he's good. He's Yeah, he'll watch us and be like, Oh my God, she's speaking me sound like, I'm like, cuckoo manga, okay, so in the process of getting all your hormones back together, which where would you say you are right now, in this process, you're six years in, right?
Tara Ellison 30:50
I've been taking hormones for like, 11 or 12 years now, so I've cycled through different things and try, I tried a patch, I tried birth control pills, tried the pellets. So where are you? I'm back to the gels and creams program.
Sarah Milken 31:04
Oh my god. So you have, like, a bakery going on.
Tara Ellison 31:08
I'm just slathering that stuff all over. Yeah? So you
Sarah Milken 31:11
didn't find that the patch worked for you. I haven't done that yet. You
Tara Ellison 31:14
know? It made me feel bloated, and it's again, it's one of those things that just, I have friends that swear by it. Yeah, it's the greatest thing. They're so happy when it's that day to, like, switch their their patch. And I wish I were one of them. I
Sarah Milken 31:27
did hear, though, from one of the doctors that sometimes she calls it like the whoosh effect or something, where with the patch, you kind of get a big jolt at one time and it drops off, whereas the creams and the gels tend to be more kind of consistent,
Tara Ellison 31:43
yeah, fair enough. I mean, that makes sense. I mean, you're putting them on, like, once or twice a day. Well, actually, I do the twice a day program that way. It sort of stays interesting, but more level. Initially I was just doing once a day, but then, you know, my body probably is very thirsty for them at this point.
Sarah Milken 32:03
So once you got now that you feel like you feel like you're in a good place right now with your hormones, or do you feel like there's still
Tara Ellison 32:11
work? Well, listen, I feel like it's a shifting carpet, that it's going to be one of those things that I probably will always need to kind of tweak or adjust. I don't have to know what that looks like. Now, I've like done enough of this sort of science experiment to kind of,
Sarah Milken 32:27
oh yeah, I didn't in SSRI, I read, right?
Tara Ellison 32:31
Yeah, I did at one point. I'm not taking that anymore. Did
Sarah Milken 32:33
that help you? Because I know a lot of women find that it does help them.
Tara Ellison 32:37
Yeah? Well, that's sort of one of the things that women get offered
Sarah Milken 32:42
because they're like, Here, take everything in the kitchen. Fucking sing, right?
Tara Ellison 32:45
What can I throw at you? Yeah? If this works so and maybe, maybe that does work for some people, I have taken them at different points, like when I got divorced before I took for a little while to just kind of get over that hump. Like, What the hell am I doing now? So I think that they are useful, but I really felt like mine was kind of hormones related. So yes, yeah, exactly situational. So the hormones kind of filled in for me enough so that I felt like,
Sarah Milken 33:16
okay, okay. So when you, when you so, I mean, obviously you've been a writer for a long time, but when did you with your daughter moving out of the house? And I did you have step kids? Yes, they're all up and Okay, so like, at what point did you say to yourself, like, Okay, I have my hormones sort of in check. I've been around and around now I need to, like, figure out what the fuck I'm gonna do with myself. Yeah. Like, were you working? Not
Tara Ellison 33:45
working. So I was writing kind of part time here and there, and not really focusing on it, and mostly just taking care of my family. And you mentioned your husband is really good at, like, he has 19 Yes, and my husband is really good at entertaining himself, like he's always
Sarah Milken 34:03
so is mine. Yeah. I'm like, I'm here. He's like, Uh huh. Like, okay.
Tara Ellison 34:07
And that's a great thing, it actually. But I was just sort of envious of like, wow. How does he figure out? Like he's so good about he goes to the gym, he does his routine, he has all these things that he does. And I just felt like, what? Why do I not know what I want to do, and why am I not going to workshops or going to events like, I just hadn't given myself permission to really kind of figure out what I wanted to do. So, and it was a process. I was like, looking for jobs, like, what? What could I do? One part that I didn't bring up was I had this huge health crisis. Forget, the menopause. Yeah, I had open heart surgery, so that was just fucking brutal. So, yeah, the year that I turned 50 that that happened, yeah, so sudden. It's a genetic condition that I didn't find out. That I had until 41 it's hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. How do you find out that you have that? Well, I was very stressed at the time, and I was having these sort of events and, and, you know, I felt like I was almost blacking out and, and my husband was like, we should take you and get you checked out. So we went to a cardiologist, and they admitted me that night to cedars because it looked like I was having a heart attack. And it really was that this defect, this genetic thing, was really making my EKG look crazy, but I have a thickness in the left ventricle. That was that, you know, when you hear of athletes on the field dropping dead, and they had no idea they had a heart problem. A lot of times it's hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. And for some reason, I'd be able, I'd been able to get to 41 without, like, dropping dead. So that was a really big shock, because they told me that you're high risk for sudden death. And I was like, no, no, I'm yoga chick. I have my green juices, I do. I'm like,
Speaker 1 36:03
fine, and I have sex every day. Yeah, that was
Tara Ellison 36:07
pre though, was actually, so I probably wasn't having sex every day, but so yeah, I was just like, Wait heart things like, no, no. That's like, for like, heavy set guys, older guys, and I had no concept of like, actually, it affects a lot of women heart disease. So number one killer, yes. So I didn't take it seriously anyway. I tried to manage it with different medications. And it turned out, you know, nine years later, that I needed this very specialized surgery that I went to the Mayo Clinic for where they they, I don't want to go down this road. It's like so weird, and not many people will have to deal with this. But I had to. They had to shave down some of my heart tissue from the big recovery. Yes, so, and also, a lot of times they don't tell you, with heart things is that there's a depression that comes with it. And wow, I knew that from going to some heart support groups. There was one woman that said, like, she once she had her surgery, she was never the same. So I was, like, terrified, like, oh my god, oh my god. But something definitely changes with you. And I don't know whether it was okay my age, or, like, menopause coming, or that I had this incredibly intense surgery, or all of it, yeah, or all of it, but I just started to really look at my life and look at my relationships, my relationship with my mother. I really kind of looked closely at it instead of, sort of, I always looked at it through humor before, and would like make jokes, but there are certain things that I couldn't sort of joke away. Something about that time or that surgery changed me.
Speaker 1 37:49
And I How old were you at that surgery?
Tara Ellison 37:52
Time turning 50. Okay, so I mean, it's at that pivotal point. So it really was one of those wake up calls where, and there was nothing I could have done differently. It wasn't like, Oh, you, you, you know, have partied or whatever. It was nothing that I could have changed lifestyle wise. It was just this fucked up thing, yeah, yeah. So anyway, there was that to tackle, and really I had to work on feeling better. And I remember going to a health practitioner, and he was think he was doing acupuncture, and he said to me, you know, I don't know how to say this, but you really don't want to be here, do you? And I was like, I can't believe he just said that to me, because I had sort of been battling this, like depression, and not really talking about it. And I was like, Wow. I can't believe he just nailed me with that. But he's like, you know, I really think you should be outside more. You should try to get to the beach and put your hand, your your hands in the water, your feet in the sand, like just, you know, be in touch with nature. And I felt like that was very grounding and sort of shocking that he would just come out and say that to me. And so I just really thought about, like, okay, how can I feel better? What steps can I take? And it was not overnight, but it was like, bit by bit, I was like, writing a bit more, and I was trying to pitch these stories on menopause, which, by the way, nobody
Sarah Milken 39:20
would take, I know now it's like, dime a dozen, big, yes,
Tara Ellison 39:23
everybody's talking about it now. And I sort of feel like, okay, well, I can write about other things now, because every this, this, this fire is cooking nicely, so I can, like, move somewhere else. But it's really been fun to watch it. But initially, you know, five years ago, it was very hard to get a menopause story, and I was writing about the testosterone story, and someone bought it at New York Times, held on to it for a year, then someone else came in and killed it. So then I had to start over with that. Eventually landed in Washington Post, but it was just this sort of journey of like, Okay, what I'm not seeing. What I need out there in terms of women talking about menopause, so I'm just going to write these stories and keep writing them until people start publishing them. And
Sarah Milken 40:09
did you know people, were you just sending them in blindly? Yeah? Like, how did you Yeah, it was just because there's so many women who want to start and write and do these things, but you're like, Where do I even start?
Tara Ellison 40:20
Yeah, it's hard to know where to start. So I just was taking classes. So, you know, you can take writing classes or writing to get published classes, and I started building a writing community, kind of like I built my midlife reboot. And also, you know, I asked questions, so I will ask friends that I know that have, like, worked with an editor like I'm thinking about this story. Do you have any ideas where I might send it, or have any thoughts? Or may I have found that my women, my friends in the writing community, have been incredible, I have to say, and just so supportive, and which is lovely to see. So I mean by taking classes and asking,
Sarah Milken 41:03
like, are these classes like at UCLA?
Tara Ellison 41:05
UCLA, I've actually taught these essay classes on how to get published. I'm not teaching right now, but I have taught those. And, you know, I would just recommend Shapiro teaches a course that's really great. She's been a writing mentor of mine teach, so she is in New York, and she teaches on Zoom, got it. So she's really terrific. And also, there's U pod Academy, which is really great one also. And so there's a lot
Sarah Milken 41:38
of resources. I feel like so many of us have these, like, little kernels of ideas, yes, and like, a lot of times we get caught up in like, okay, but I kind of know what I want to write about, and I know what I'm interested in, but how am I ever going to get it anywhere? And it's not that you have to have it figured out in advance, but it's kind of nice to know sometimes, like, Oh, she took a class. It's not just like, it fucking magically appeared out of the sky, right? You know? And it's like, all these kind of, like, little tips and tricks of like, how do you take the first step? Like, what is that first step?
Tara Ellison 42:13
Take as many workshops as you can. That's really what I started doing, and that was the most helpful. I mean, I I'm someone who had written things for myself, like journals, and I wrote a book years ago about sort of dating in LA as a single mother. It's kind of like a crazy beach read. I look at it now and I'm like, Oh, I don't think that aged very well. But anyway, what are you gonna do? So it was a time in my life I was working through things. But I think having a sense of humor about things is is particularly important in midlife you. I mean, you have
Sarah Milken 42:53
your days a cluster fuck of some Yes, exactly. You're like, what's happening now? But
Tara Ellison 42:58
also I started, and in the article I'm talking about that too. With the midlife reboot, I was asking other women like, you know, how did you know what you wanted to do? And one lady was telling me, oh, I just two years before I retired, I kept a notebook. Every time I thought, Oh, I kind of am interested in that, I would write down something. So I just started working through my notebook. So
Sarah Milken 43:18
I wish I had that many ideas, I know, right, you have a note knitting. I remember posting, like, at something on Instagram about hobbies, and all these people commented. It was like, I don't know, tightrope, trapeze, knitting and all that stuff. And I'm like, I wish I, like, was interested in those things, right? Like, I, you know? And then I saw this, like, ceramics class in Malibu. So I called my friend, and I was like, are we gonna do a midlife field trip to Malibu? Are we gonna do the $100 ceramics class? Just to say we did it, we haven't done it yet, but we're going to. But it's like, it's those things that aren't part of your normal. And like we were talking about earlier, I think for some people, those things are so obvious, you know, like, I ran into a friend the other day, and I hadn't seen her in a long time, and she plays pickleball, and she's like, Sarah, I made like, the the Maccabee games in Israel for 50 and above. And I was like, What the fuck are you talking about? And I was like, what like, you're going to compete in pickleball, pickleball in Israel this summer, like, on the US team. Wow. This is like, Girl in Brentwood, my age. I went to her the only time I've ever played pickleball was her birthday party when she turned 50. And I'm like, the fact that, like, I don't know, it just, like, blew my mind. It was so cool and like, so out there. It was, like, something my husband would do, yeah, you know what? I mean, I'm like, what? She hasn't stopped playing, yeah? And I'm like, Oh my God, and wow, you know, but it's like, we all have our things. I was like, Okay, well, I started a podcast. I may not play pickleball, but, like. Great all have our like, own little things, but I kind of, sometimes I'm with my husband and all of his hobbies, I'm kind of jealous, yes, you
Tara Ellison 45:09
know, but you know, if you don't try things that are sort of outside of your comfort zone, you don't know that you might actually be really good at pickleball.
Sarah Milken 45:18
Like, I'm not exactly the most athletic person in the world, but me neither I know. So I'm kind of like, I just keep thinking, like, Okay, is it, you know, pottery, I didn't do that well on that in high school when it was required. I'm like, does Instagram count as a hobby, right? Well, you're very good. I'm like, content creation. Is that a hobby? I don't know. It just you start thinking. And I think what's hard for a lot of women, and I know you talked about that in your article, also, is there are people who've had those things in their in themselves for so long, like they wanted to go back to dancing, or they wanted to go back to something, but for people like you and me, where we didn't already have those, and then we get to this point in life where, like, oh shit, what now? And you said you didn't give yourself permission to do those fun adventures, but you didn't even know what the fuck the fun adventures would be, even if you had the time, and you did have the time, but you didn't know what they would be. And then your husband would go on like a, you know, three day boys trip twice in three weeks, and you're like, Wait, you're leaving again. And it's so true, because you feel like you're this, like codependent person, and it's not like my husband's at home entertaining me and doing a dance show, but I know he's there, yes, and then it creates this kind of like codependence culture in your home, of like, well, what do I do without him. And what do I do without the structure that he brings to today or tonight or whatever? Well, you
Tara Ellison 46:47
kind of shake things up a little bit when you decide to make new choices, right? Kind
Sarah Milken 46:52
of you went on your degree trip, yeah, like soon. And how was that? How did that feel for him?
Tara Ellison 46:57
Well, you know,
Tara Ellison 47:01
I'm sure, you know, he's very good about
Sarah Milken 47:03
it, but it was kind of a little stingy, right? Yes,
Tara Ellison 47:06
and he asked me, and, like, we'll make a comment, like, you know, a little whiny, something or other, and, and it's cute. It's like, okay, like, yes, he let him miss me for a minute. Much better for our relationship, that I have things going on that I'm excited about, because, like, working with the seals
Sarah Milken 47:25
as well. We're gonna get to that. I mean, I was, like, fucking saving that. Because, like, who is playing with sea otters other than you? Well, yeah, I mean, that's pretty funny. I mean, you have to tell everyone about Okay, so, I mean, I do love the sea otter Instagram reels. I'm not sure I would feed them fish, but they're really cute on Instagram.
Tara Ellison 47:45
Well, there was a sea lion that I came across on on a beach one day. I don't know what the
Sarah Milken 47:50
difference is between the lion and an otter.
Tara Ellison 47:52
There's actually a really big difference. Otters are like this, and then the sea lions can be like you know, cute little So, yeah, there's, there's not a lot of otters in my life, but there are, like, elephant seal pups and certain time of year, and also sea lions from pup size to adults. So, so I met this woman that came out to like, help the sea lion. And I was like, Whoa, tell me about your you met her just on the beach, random. Well, I had to Google to find out and figure out. And I think I was like, on next door or something, just trying everywhere. What do I do? The sea lion is hanging out here. Looks kind of funky, like, I'm not
Sarah Milken 48:39
sure. So you were trying to solve a sea lion issue? Yes, it wasn't like you were actively interested in sea lion. No,
Tara Ellison 48:46
it sort of it. Picked me the sea lion. I was the designated person in its life, in that moment. So I was like, okay, so I called California Wildlife Center, yeah, so I'm a city girl. I didn't know. Like, is this a thing where they just, like, hang out and look really like they're gonna, like, keel over, like, this, poor sila. And she looked really bad. And it turned out, I found out later, oh, you can say, do they have was part? Well, you'd have to roll her over. And I don't think she was up for that. She was really not having she needed some hormones. Yeah, it was not having
Sarah Milken 49:23
it because rabbits, like, there's certain animals, like, you don't know what their gender is like based like, all,
Tara Ellison 49:30
I mean, unless they're presenting and their their parts. Like, I was just in Sydney, testosterone. Yes, I was just in Sydney in August, seeing my family there. And my cousin lives in a part of Canberra where there are kangaroos everywhere. And I say very Americanized at this point, like, my days of encountering kangaroos are like, long Yeah, mine are on Instagram. So this one we're driving around, and I just couldn't believe they're just like, everywhere. And this one man. Male. He got up on his hind legs and, and she's like, oh yeah. Look these, you know, full of testosterone, that boy he's presenting for you. Oh, and, you know, he had the most incredibly large balls I was, Oh, my God, look at that. And they're almost like caricatures, because he's kind of like, puffing his chest up to be like, Wow, Superman standing here on my legs and like, you know, don't fuck with me. I'm showing you my equipment here. I mean, it's, it's, you should look it up. Wow. Yeah, they have these videos. I didn't know that that was so. So anyway, kangaroo, there's no question with a kangaroo what you're dealing with, and certain
Sarah Milken 50:42
animals like this. This was a big female.
Tara Ellison 50:45
So big female. Anyway, she she ended up being so sick that they did end up putting her down, which was sad, but she was blind, and she had, like, a lot of problems, so she was like, gonna, you know, expire probably soon. That's why she was stranding like that. But I was fascinated that you call and these people come and they, you know, it just seemed really cool that they're there and taking care of the wildlife like that. So I ended up, like, hounding this woman until she would let me come and enjoy and she's like, yes, we're gonna have a training. We're gonna have a training volunteers, and I just, like, kept leaving her voicemail. She's probably like, Oh, she's so annoyed or stalker. So eventually, so now I'm in. So it was six season this year, so I go on my, you know, adventures with them. And there's certain times of the year where, you know, our season is basically from Christmas day until like the end of July, unless there's an event where they extend it. But so the elephant seal pups strand, and they've been weaned from their mother, usually around, like a month. And if they don't figure out how to fish, then they don't do well, because the only water intake they have is through fish. So if they haven't figured that out, or they might have, like, stomach issues, or they're not going to survive. So basically, we come any, any that are not doing well, we'll scoop them up, feed them, teach them how to fish.
Sarah Milken 52:17
Basically, it's pretty funny. How often are you sea ottering?
Tara Ellison 52:22
So I go, like, what are
Tara Ellison 52:28
you like? So I volunteer one day a week, but in the busy season, I can volunteer more than that, or they'll call me for certain rescues and say, Hey, we have one we're going to pick up. Can you join? Because sometimes they're really large or really heavy, and you're so big and muscular. But you know what, I'm Yeah, it's funny Heather, the supervisor, is really great, because I had this conversation with her before about, like, Okay, I'm a chick with, you know, heart issues. Like, how can I be helpful? Like, and she's like, there's a job for everybody. So I'm not necessarily carrying them all the time. I carry them sometimes, but, like, you know, it's pretty arduous. So there's usually at least four people trying to carry these things in, in the crates. You have, like, a whole outfit. We have a T shirt thing, but, yeah, we have, we were waiters when we're feeding them, but the real beauty of it was that it gave me a community, and it gave me a sense of purpose, and I met some really terrific people volunteering, and the staff is great. So I was really missing that because my daughter was getting older, all of those sort of built in structures. When your kids in school, you're seeing lots of other parents, and there's always, you know, they need you at the school, or you're doing this soccer game. Yeah, exactly. So. So as those started to sort of fall by the wayside, I wasn't replacing them with anything. So that's sort of part of like, where, you know, turning 50, there was a lot of things that I had to look at and how to build community, or find community, and a lot of that can be through through hobbies, like, if you're really into pickleball, there's a lot of other people that really like to do. So who knew this is going to be so huge? But so whatever your thing is, and maybe you don't know what your thing is, but you you try a bunch of things and see if any of them stick.
Sarah Milken 54:25
You feel like kind of weird that you're like, I don't know anything about like, seed life. And here I
Tara Ellison 54:32
am every day, every day, every day I was there, I would be like, Okay, I am seriously challenged here, and also it makes your brain work in different ways, like you're measuring this and you're doing it, and it's probably the best thing I could have done for my brain, in terms of, like, this was nothing like anything I ever done before. And you know, you have to be in the moment. You have to wear your gloves. You have to, like, be careful. Full and protect yourself so that you know some, some of the seals their jaws are very powerful, and you have to keep your fingers out of the way of their
Sarah Milken 55:11
mouth. Be present. And when I what I read, you said that like it would prevent because you were in the moment of the actual chore. Even as mundane as it was, you sort of had to stay focused. You weren't like, thinking about your sick mom or this or that. It was just kind of like, this is my job, and this is what I'm doing right now.
Tara Ellison 55:31
Yes, and I think that's also the beauty of like sports, or like surfing or anything that forces you to be in the moment like that. It's like, okay with sports, someone throws the ball at you, you can't necessarily plan how that's going to go down in advance. It's like, oh, it's it's coming, yeah. You have to respond in that moment. Or, like, we could make a plan for, like, how we're going to get this animal into the net, into the crate, and then the animal makes a decision, right? You have to respond in that moment. So from sort of feeling like I was kind of asleep in my life, that was really invigorating. Like, okay, I can't check out. I have to, I have to be here every moment, and when I'm working with someone else, I have to be like, our safety. I'm helping keep them safe. They're helping keep me safe. There are things that we have to do in that moment that you can't be lazy and like, check out. Yeah.
Sarah Milken 56:29
And I think another really big theme that I saw throughout your writing is you're talking about this kind of like, relentless loneliness, like you have a husband, you have a kid and step kids, and you have a home and all of these things, but you're still by yourself, lonely, and that a marriage doesn't necessarily mean that you're not alone,
Tara Ellison 56:51
right? And that is a big one. It is to kind of grass, no, it is a big one. But I also look at that and I if I'm being honest about all of my history. I probably have been a lonely person for most of my life, so I've been busy enough that it masked that. So, you know, certainly with like everything, with the kids and, like, a busy life and all of that, I wasn't aware of it. But then when things got quiet, I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm actually lonely. And maybe that's okay, and that's not the end of the world, but it's, you know, people think, Oh, you have a partner there all the time. It wasn't something that he could fix
Sarah Milken 57:32
100% and that's what I've talked about in my podcast the whole time. It's like, I think I secretly wanted him to rescue me from midlife boredom, but I never said it, but I think I just assume, like, Oh, it's my husband. He loves me. He's gonna make sure that I'm okay. But I never asked him for that. And then one day, I just Well, wasn't one day, but over time, I just like, realized that this is, like, a self job, like he's not gonna hand me a box. It's like here, Sarah, here's a podcast, and here's an Instagram with all these followers, and here's all your content. And it's not that I wanted that, but I think so many things in life right now are buy one, get one free. You can have it right now. You can Door Dash a grass fed steak right now, you know, but you can't Door Dash or Postmates like a self reinvention, a
Tara Ellison 58:28
reboot. Well, when you build it, you have that satisfaction, like, right? You can attest to that you built it yourself, right? If someone just handed it to you, where is
Sarah Milken 58:38
you never think that you can get as far as you do once you get you know what I'm saying, like, I just think, Oh, I'm just gonna try that thing, and it's probably not gonna work out. But it's like, the difference is, is there are some people who are just gonna be consistent as fuck. I mean, like, there are a lot of days I wake up and I'm like, I can't do my podcast for one more minute. I hate this. I hate this, not that I really hate it, but when you're in like, midlife fog and you're tired and you have, like, a shitty night's sleep, and then someone's like, Okay, we're gonna interview three people today. You're like, what? Like, I signed and my daughter is hysterical. She'll go, you signed up for this. You made this. That's you gave yourself homework.
Tara Ellison 59:21
That's right, you didn't need to have any, yeah,
Sarah Milken 59:25
but it just kind of makes me laugh, because everything in midlife is hard and good. It's like my podcast is good, but it's also really hard. And I feel like we all have these sort of same themes of like, we want to do this, but it's hard. We want to do that, but it's hard. But if everything were easy, then nothing would be worth it. You know, it's like life in nuance and contrast, and
Tara Ellison 59:51
it wouldn't be satisfying. Yeah. So building something, as you well know, is very it's a cool feeling.
Sarah Milken 59:58
And I think the other thing. Is that you talked about in terms of, like, your midlife reboot, that you felt like, the first one from my memory, is that it was kind of putting yourself out there Yeah, and like saying yes to stuff, like going to a workshop, going to a random book signing you knew you weren't gonna know anyone. Like, That's so awkward. I mean, it always is awkward. But I feel like, if you show up and you meet one person, and that person introduces you to blah, blah, blah, like, it's worth it and it's fun, yeah, and not every single time it's gonna be like, Oh my god, I got a book deal out of that. Like, not everything's a blockbuster, right? But it's like, one little
Tara Ellison 1:00:36
it's one step, yeah. I mean, that's really what you know, putting this all together, this reboot, it was one step at a time. So it was, you know, getting my health in order, recovering from an intense surgery, and sort of trying to feel like myself again, and keeping your marriage together, keeping my marriage together, and finding things that gave me community and a sense of purpose outside of helping my daughter or, you know, because at a certain point they
Sarah Milken 1:01:08
really didn't feel like the writing was enough for you.
Tara Ellison 1:01:10
Well, it was, but I wasn't taking it seriously enough. I wasn't prioritizing it, and that was my own. But
Sarah Milken 1:01:18
do you think if you had done the writing thing where you've come now, a few years ago, you might have skipped the sea pop, yes,
Tara Ellison 1:01:25
probably my C pop adventure,
Tara Ellison 1:01:31
right? I probably would have, and I that's been one of the greatest gifts of midlife, finding
Sarah Milken 1:01:38
skills question, because I think sometimes we write things off, like the ceramics, the C pup, that's kind of weird. That's irrelevant. Why does that matter? But maybe sometimes those are the things that end up having the most value. Yes, and you don't always know when you don't know,
Tara Ellison 1:01:56
yeah, until you really sort of try. And there were some days where I left my shift thinking like, Man, I suck. I really suck at this animal thing. Like, can't figure that's
Sarah Milken 1:02:07
like, if somebody put me in like, a cooking situation, I'd be like, kill me,
Tara Ellison 1:02:12
yeah, yeah, exactly. But most of the time the cooking is not gonna bite you.
Sarah Milken 1:02:17
No, yeah, no, you just might feed someone dog, something awful.
Tara Ellison 1:02:20
Yeah, exactly, yeah. So I was really challenged with it in moments, and am still challenged with it, but that's sort of part of, like, Okay, I'm actually tougher than I realized, or I am more resilient in certain ways. And yeah, maybe I'm not like, super brawny and like, you know, the strongest chick on the team, but I have other things and maybe some other animals. Getting it
Sarah Milken 1:02:46
sort of takes the kind of fancy out of you, you know what I mean, like the woman who drove carpool and had all her ducks lined up, and it kind of takes you out of that, yeah?
Tara Ellison 1:02:59
Well, let me tell you, there's nothing like scrubbing shit that's like, your time. Oh my God. It is like penance. There are certain days and you show up and these blankets that they've, like, had overnight, that they will lie on and everything, and they're just baked in shit. And, I mean, you have gloves on, but you're like, oh my god, this is, like, the most foul thing I've ever seen or spent.
Sarah Milken 1:03:26
Do you feel like you did it? Because it also was in such contrast to your real life? Yeah.
Tara Ellison 1:03:32
I mean, yes, that is exhilarating. I was telling somebody about it,
Sarah Milken 1:03:36
we'll go camping. I'm like, why the fuck do you want to go camping when you can sleep in your house? Yeah, you know what? I mean, it's sometimes the contrast that's so liberating in a weird way. Yeah, you're like, This is so so not me. Yeah, yes. Like, sleeping in a dorm room, like, oh my god, I haven't done that for a while.
Tara Ellison 1:03:53
Yeah, yeah, no, thanks. So, yeah, it's just finding, like, yeah, what? What is that thing? Find your seals. Find that thing for you that really is fun, that challenges you, but I would leave, like, so tired, and I would drive home and like, I lie on the I take all of my clothes off, put them in the washing machine because they like smell of fish and like scale, like gross, gross.
Sarah Milken 1:04:17
But you kept going back, kept going back. Yeah, that's what's fascinating about that.
Tara Ellison 1:04:22
But I am so not fancy. So that's actually fun to, like, lean into. Like, I didn't know how not fancy I tried. But, you know, initially, the one of the people that met me that had been a volunteer before he, you know, looked at me, judge me, like she's a mom, yeah? What? She doesn't know anything about this, but, um, he's like, Yeah, you know, there's, it's really kind of gross, you there's a lot of chopping fish and, like, really gross thing. And, like, I mean, I can't even tell you some of, like, the awful things that I've seen, or, like, sea lions. Chewed up by sharks and, like, really, like, really horrifying things. And sea lions with the type of wounds that you know, like, this animal is not going to survive this, and it's heartbreaking, because you can't save them all where, you know, a sea lion that's still trying to, that has no back flippers, that the shark took off, and it's still trying to, like, figure it out, and you're just like, oh my god, so painful. There is something about it that jolts you into a place of being really awake. And yeah, I mean, yeah, it doesn't. I don't look like maybe I'd be doing all these things, but that's the fun of it,
Sarah Milken 1:05:36
yeah, no, I think it's the contrast of it, for sure. And I think the other two things that stood out to me in the kind of like the steps, you know, Steps to a midlife reboot, were creativity and kind of service for something larger than
Tara Ellison 1:05:55
yourself. Yes, for sure, the creativity part was easy for me because I already had the writing, and it was just a matter of, like, being consistent about it, and also, you know, understanding that I have the right to share stories. Like, you know, maybe somebody, maybe my story, can help somebody else. Like, that's really the way, the reason behind sharing stories, because that's how we learn. And like, okay, yeah, this person did a re gave herself a reboot. So I could do that too. I could, like, you know, I've heard from so many people from that one article in LA times that it said, like, Oh, this is me you're writing about. We're living parallel lives,
Sarah Milken 1:06:37
right? I know I get those messages all day long, right? I'm sure I had literally had 10 women say to me today, oh my god, I'm on a midlife protein scavenger hunt too. I can't find enough protein. I'm like, I know, right?
Tara Ellison 1:06:50
And you're sharing what's going on with you, and then you realize, oh my God, so many other people are in this boat trying to figure this out and share, if you didn't share that today, about your protein scavenger hunt, like all those other women, like, you know, trying to do it, they wouldn't feel that sense of community. Oh, we're all trying
Sarah Milken 1:07:07
to do what else names it. And you're like, oh, wait, that's kind of like how I'm feeling, but like, I couldn't exactly put it into words. And sometimes when someone else puts it into words that are, like, relatable and make sense, you're like, oh, like, I'm more normal, like, I'm not the only one who feels this way
Tara Ellison 1:07:23
Exactly. Yeah. And you mentioned service, so that's really being of service in some way, volunteering. There's so many things that could need, that need your help. Yeah? You know, so many, so many. So it's a matter of, like, lining up. Like, okay, I have these interests. I'm kind of drawn to these things. How could I be inserted
Sarah Milken 1:07:43
to other things? And that's the other thing is, you don't necessarily know what's down the road. You take one step, yeah. Like Pamela Salzman has been on my podcast twice, and she has like, a whole cooking Instagram platform. But she when her kids, like, maybe they were going to college or they were in high school, she started, like, volunteering in like a gardening program at a school, and they were like, growing vegetables or whatever, you know, and then she taught a cooking class that someone convinced her to do, and then it turned into this whole thing. And you never know what that little thing is going to turn into, right? But you won't know unless you've tried it, and you've tried it more than once, and the consistency thing, you know, yeah, you're
Tara Ellison 1:08:25
it, you're you just said it. You're basically planting a seed and nurturing because I just never
Sarah Milken 1:08:30
know, because you could have walked into the seed pup thing and been like, Okay, I'm out of here. I gotta go.
Tara Ellison 1:08:35
Well, I would never have thought of it, right? I really, I mean, that was just so I had no interest in being a vet. I didn't like, know, you know, I having access to animals like that. I thought only vets do that, and right? I'm not, you know, I had, my career was like nothing like that. So sometimes you just have to think out of the box. Or something, a sea lion crosses your path, or something, you get some sort of clue from the universe, like, Oh, this is kind of cool, or this thing happened, or I went to an event with a friend and met somebody else, talked about something, and now I'm interested in pursuing that. Something, whatever
Sarah Milken 1:09:14
do you feel like it's helped your marriage, in the sense that, like, no in the article you said something like, it gave me something to talk about at dinner. Yes, other than, like, I went to the market. You know, not that the market's not important. But like,
Tara Ellison 1:09:29
Well, I was excited about my life again, and I had new experiences to talk about. And, you know, he does cool things during the day. And I was like, wait a minute, I tube fed this sea lion today. You should have seen that, you know. And I show him the picture of the sea lion on my phone and and I was really engaged in what I was doing in a way that I felt I hadn't been in a long time. So it wasn't like I'm doing this for him. I'm excited about, well, yeah.
Sarah Milken 1:10:00
I heard another guest that I spoke I've spoken with twice. She Eve radsky. She talks about, like, being interested and being interesting, that you want to always be on both sides, so you have something to bring to the table too. And it doesn't have to be like this, like, amazing, astounding thing, but that, you know, you're gonna talk about what you did that day and like, wow, that's kind of cool, that you were feeding sea lions or whatever. You know, it's different, it's
Tara Ellison 1:10:28
random, it's wild, it's Yeah, so I agree with that
Sarah Milken 1:10:32
totally. And I'll go home tonight and tell my husband that we talked about your vagina, that we talked about your sex life. You know, we all talk about everything. We all have our own versions of our stories, right?
Tara Ellison 1:10:42
Yeah, I'm sure dinner talk my husband probably prefer I stopped like, yeah, talking
Sarah Milken 1:10:47
about, I'll tell my husband that you have sex every day and we're not. Yeah. I mean, there's so many things to talk about tonight at dinner. Yeah, while I look for protein, yeah, exactly, we're gonna have vegetable soup, but it was made with chicken stone broth so it has protein, like, checked on, I can't, yeah, like, too many. It's like, too many things you have to give up at a certain, oh, my God. Now. So if you had, like, one piece of advice for women listening, who are like, What the fuck now? Yeah, what would it be?
Tara Ellison 1:11:16
I would say, be curious. Like, really? Follow what's interesting, follow what sounds like fun, like, follow a friend who's doing something cool. See if that works for you. And you might meet you might it might not, but you tried something new, and you might meet someone there and like, try something else. But just staying sort of curious and alive and engaged is really it leads to other things.
Sarah Milken 1:11:43
Okay, what's up next for you?
Tara Ellison 1:11:45
I'm doing some book projects.
Tara Ellison 1:11:50
I'm having some fun doing. I'm doing a midlife book that's something that I've really been wanting to do for a while. And I'm doing a book about my relationship with my mother, which is a very sort of non traditional kind of crazy relationship with my mother, right?
Sarah Milken 1:12:07
So we need to do a whole other episode. Yeah, that's why I didn't even bring it up. I was like, that whole series unto itself.
Tara Ellison 1:12:14
Yes, yes. So plenty of material there. So I'm doing a follow up piece for LA Times in the midlife space. But I'm also working on my own projects. Do you
Sarah Milken 1:12:25
find that book writing and writing in general can be kind of solitary and lonely and like you kind of have to force yourself to kind of stay on game with other things? Yes.
Tara Ellison 1:12:35
I mean, I I've kind of taken on a lot, and I'm also doing a screenplay I forgot. Oh, my God. So yeah, I mean, the whole writing thing is very solitary, so, you know, I can think of 9 million things to do instead of writing. So really, the biggest obstacle for me is, like, getting my butt in the chair, and
Sarah Milken 1:12:55
I know focus at this age, yes, it's hard. And I'm like, I'm not an add person, but I'm sometimes, I'm like, do I need to be reevaluated? Right? I think I, and I think a lot of women, feel that
Tara Ellison 1:13:08
I've been thinking that too, like maybe I am that might explain a few things. Yeah, it could be, you know, estrogen decline. It could be, who knows, but I definitely feel I wake up and I'm like, Is my brain going to cooperate today? 100% coming in here? I was like, let's see. Why do you
Sarah Milken 1:13:26
think I brought notes today? I was like, I've never brought notes before, but today's gonna be the first day. Because today's not gonna be the first day that I fucking forgot everything I was
Tara Ellison 1:13:33
supposed to say, Yeah, but, and if you did, that would be okay,
Sarah Milken 1:13:37
right? Saying, like, you know you think you have your shit together, and sometimes you just don't, and you're like, Yeah, it's so weird. Yeah, it's you're not accustomed to that. And I think it's also interesting, like, as husbands view it, because, you know, they're not 100% going through the same thing, you know, but they're seeing it too. So you have to laugh about it, because, yeah, it really, where is everything? I mean, my husband really enjoys being on my Instagram. Oh, my God. The worst. The worst. Okay, so where can people find you?
Tara Ellison 1:14:11
Well, I'm on Instagram Tara Ellison, writer, and my website is Tara ellison.com so come by, say hello,
Sarah Milken 1:14:21
and either and your Instagram has all the links to all the article, all the links to Yes, and it doesn't take you to, like, pay 999 to join. Oh no, no, no, see the whole fucking article, which I love, because sometimes I'm like, That's so annoying.
Tara Ellison 1:14:35
Yes, yeah. I think there's, like, maybe one or two that might be on a paywall still, but most of them are just available,
Sarah Milken 1:14:42
so I love it, and I printed them all out to my idea, like, what are you doing? I'm like, I need some paper. I need to serve that. I need to highlight. Like, I'm school.
Tara Ellison 1:14:52
You're thorough. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you they
Sarah Milken 1:14:56
want to have. Thank you for being here, everyone. Tara L. Listen. Check her out on Instagram, her website. Love talking midlife. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thanks for sweating with
Tara Ellison 1:15:07
this was so fun. Thank you.
Sarah Milken 1:15:15
Wait, wait, don't hang up. There are three things you can do. First, subscribe to the podcast. Second, share it with some friends who like midlife shit. And third, write an apple review. I know writing reviews is so annoying and it's an extra step, but guess what, it really helps the podcast grow. You think your little review will matter, but it does. If you went to a show and everyone said, My clap doesn't matter, then there will be no clapping. You all matter. DM me. You know, I always respond and you guys, now you can go and watch this episode on YouTube, and, of course, follow my instagram at the flexible, neurotic. Duh. Love you talk soon. You.
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